New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: more rules help
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

more rules help

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
ClubRacer View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 26 Sep 15
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 168
Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: more rules help
    Posted: 23 May 21 at 5:35pm
This weekend. Open meeting. 15-20 knots. Windward leeward course with a gate. Big swell.

Boat Y is sailing for a long time on what appears to be, marginally on the layline for the left hand gate

Boat B decides it will follow Y around the left hand gate to prevent an extra gybe in challenging conditions and is easily inside the lay line

Y looks behind and goes to gybe and see's B and bails out then finally goes for it forcing B into a crash gybe just outside the 3 boat lengths. Y had completed their gybe with just enough time for B to respond without immediately hitting Y.

After B has completed their gybe they are now both inside the zone with B overlapped inside Y. B having just come out of the crash gybe still with the kite up B can't  avoid hitting Y and get a seaman like rounding and decides to stuff it into the mark to avoid a big collision. 

B then gets tangled round the mark and stuck for 10 mins forcing retirement.













Edited by ClubRacer - 23 May 21 at 7:08pm
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6410
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 21 at 7:20pm
So we start off with both boats on port, and Y clear ahead and to windward of B. So Y has ROW.
Y changes course and gybes onto Starboard. She retains ROW, but must give B room to keep clear.
B gybes on to starboard and is now windward overlapped. They enter the Zone, B is now entitled to mark room.
For reasons that aren't entirely clear to me B then hits the mark.
With Y having ROW right through, it seems to be it all hinges on whether B was given the room she was entitled.
So we start with the definition:
Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

As soon as I saw the words crash gybe I started wondering whether room was given, and similarly "can't avoid hitting".


Edited by JimC - 23 May 21 at 7:22pm
Back to Top
ClubRacer View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 26 Sep 15
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 168
Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 21 at 7:28pm
 Obviously the conditions have to play a part in this. Gybing in 15-20 knots 3 boat lengths from a zone and then having to drop the kite, which I don't think B has to anticipate the gybe so therefore needs to be left room to drop the kite before rounding (is that even covered in the rules)? Would Y have to give B enough room to drop the kite before rounding which may end up another 2-3 boat lengths from the buoy given the speeds they are travelling? 


Its a tough one. If you removed the mark situation I would say Y's gybe was totally legal but am unsure where Y's obligation to give B mark room ends

Also had it have been 5 knots of breeze there would be no issue about getting a seaman like rounding out of that situation


Edited by ClubRacer - 23 May 21 at 7:53pm
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1057
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 21 at 9:52pm
As usual, I'm not much taken with the term 'crash gybe'.  What's the difference between a crash gybe when you don't want to gybe and a quick gybe when you do want to?

As far as I can see, after Y gybed, B gybed, in a seamanlike way and there was no contact.  I think Y is clean for rules 15/16 in the gybe.

Once in the zone, according to the OP 'B can't  avoid hitting Y and get a seaman like rounding'  That's saying that B is not being given mark-room.

So, on valid protest, penalise Y, B is exonerated for the mark touch, but is not entitled to any redress.

No need to 'take the mark away', that's for opposite tacks at a windward mark.

Y's obligation to give mark room ends when 'mark-room has been given' (rule 18.1)

The mark-room B is entitled to is (a) room to sail to the mark, and then (b) room to round or pass it as necessary to sail the course.

By the diagram, I don't think that Y has yet reached the point where all the mark-room B is entitled to has been given.
Back to Top
ClubRacer View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 26 Sep 15
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 168
Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 21 at 10:13pm
The take the mark away was merely a way of justifying my interpretation of the legality of the gybe. 

Why would B not be able to get redress under 62.1b? In theory then B would be better off attempting to take the mark room at the risk of contact? 

Here is my expectation of how it would have played out if B had gone for mark room. Y would not have born away at 7 and there would have been a collision at near 10 knots. B couldn't stay higher and been able to get round the mark.


Note that Y could probably have had the kite down a lot sooner than the diagram and thus would not need to bear away, apart from to avoid contact with B
Has B taken too much mark room in that hypothetical situation?



The difference between a crash gybe for me and a fast gybe is a crash is; pull the tiller, work the rest out later. In this scenario obviously it worked fine initially. Had it have not then B would be looking at Y for not giving room to keep clear. Obviously Y have no obligation to give B time to setup for a nice gybe just "room to keep clear." 9 times out of 10 you can anticipate the moves of others around you and prevent the crash gybes by being "setup" ready to gybe when needed, but B has no obligation to expect Y to gybe in this scenario. 


Edited by ClubRacer - 23 May 21 at 10:41pm
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1057
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 21 at 11:38pm
OK, yes, there are two separate incidents, the gybe incident, outside the zone, so mark-room not involved, then the incident at the mark.

For redress under rule 62.1(b), there has to be injury or physical damage.  You didn't say anything about that in your OP.  It's not enough that there could have been damage or injury.

I think your judgement is right about insufficient mark-room.
Back to Top
ClubRacer View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 26 Sep 15
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 168
Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 21 at 6:01am
How does that look in a protest room?
It feels like its going to be hard to prove that Y didn’t give B mark room because B bailed out. Would the diagrams drawn be sufficient?
Im still un-clear in this scenario if mark room involves room for B to drop its kite. If both boats were coming in overlapped on starboard for a long time then is the expectation for room needed to round the mark less?
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8873
Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 21 at 7:55am
Wouldn't yellow just say - yes, there was room to gybe, blue gybed? And then say yes, there was room at the mark, it's not my problem that blue can't steer properly?
Without witnesses, it simply becomes opinions on space, and yellow is always going to say there was plenty, and blue that there wasn't. The protest then just becomes about who is believed. Or is that just a cynical view?
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
ClubRacer View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 26 Sep 15
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 168
Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 21 at 8:02am
Originally posted by Rupert

Wouldn't yellow just say - yes, there was room to gybe, blue gybed? And then say yes, there was room at the mark, it's not my problem that blue can't steer properly?
Without witnesses, it simply becomes opinions on space, and yellow is always going to say there was plenty, and blue that there wasn't. The protest then just becomes about who is believed. Or is that just a cynical view?


Well that is my thoughts too and wanted better insight into how it would be resolved
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6410
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 21 at 10:03am
I'm still puzzled by why B felt it necessary to "stuff it into the mark to avoid a big collision" The two boats were alongside each other travelling in the same direction at much the same speed. Even if Blue's drop went badly wrong wouldn't the worst have been a bit of bumping and both boats ending up several boat lengths past the mark before rounding up?

Protests are almost always about what the PC reckons really happened. The PC is under no obligation to believe either story, and its probably not unusual for the actual events to have been somewhere in between.

I think RYA Case 2004/8 is somewhat relevant.

RYA 2004/8
Definitions, Mark-Room
Rule 18.2(b), Mark-Room: Giving Mark-Room
Rule 18.4. Mark-Room: Gybing
The room an outside overlapped boat must give at a mark to an inside right-of-way boat includes room to gybe when that is part of the inside boat’s proper course to round the mark. In determining the right of an inside boat to mark-room under rule 18.2(b), it is irrelevant that boats are on widely differing courses, provided that an overlap exists when the first of them enters the zone.

SUMMARY OF THE FACTS
In force 3-4 conditions, following a wind shift, S was approaching a leeward mark, which she was required to round to port, broad-reaching on starboard tack in order to gybe onto a reciprocal close-hauled course. P, on another leg of the course, was approaching the same mark, also to round it, from nearly the opposite direction, on port tack.
S hailed for room to round the mark and this hail was acknowledged. S judged that she was not being given sufficient room to gybe in safety, and passed astern of P before gybing. Her protest, under rules 10 and 18, and which alleged contact (but not damage), was dismissed on the grounds that contact was not proven, that room was given for her gybe, and for S to decide not to gybe was prudence that should not result in the penalisation of P. S appealed.
DECISION
S’s appeal is upheld. P is disqualified.
S and P were on opposite tacks, but rule 18 applied, since both boats were not on a beat to windward (see rule 18.1(a)), nor was the proper course of one of them to tack at the mark (see rule 18.1(b)). It was not relevant that they were approaching the mark on widely differing courses – see WS Case 12. When the first of them entered the mark’s zone they were overlapped, and P was required by rule 18.2(b) to give S room to round the mark. It is clear that S’s proper course was to gybe at the mark as required by rule 18.4, and that she intended to do so.
The protest committee’s conclusion that sufficient room was given for a gybe is contradicted by its conclusion that, in the circumstances, it was prudent for S not to attempt to gybe in the room given. That is tantamount to saying that S was not given sufficient space in the prevailing conditions.
Rather than gybing, S luffed, and contact was likely had she not done so. P therefore broke both rule 10 and rule 18.2(b).


As its unarguable that B needed to take down her kite, then it seems reasonable to me that room needed to be provided to do it in the same way the case states that room to gybe needed to be provided.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy