New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: SailGP Final Aarus
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

SailGP Final Aarus

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6625
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 21 at 11:15am
It looks like a messy rule set. 18.3b applies tp an inside boat with ROW, but in this case the inside boat didn't have ROW!
Back to Top
eric_c View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 21 Jan 18
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 371
Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 21 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by ohFFsake

The rules are here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F-dHKbK0i-N7kgvmXuBaUWgosNdgAOsT/view

It takes a bit of unravelling, as the definition of "mark room" includes the word "room" in italics which implies that it incorporates that definition too.
"Room" brings with it an obligation to manoeuvre "promptly and in a seamanlike manner"

Rule 18.3 obliges a boat that needs to tack at a mark to do so asap, but it doesn't apply at gate marks or to boats not overlapped.

So I would argue that the boat entitled to mark room cannot sail as far as she wants, but is obliged to sail her proper course promptly and in a seamanlike manner.


But it's also worth noting that the rules are effectively just a guide for the umpires, as rule 62 states there shall be no redress.


What their rules actually say:
"""18.3 Tacking or Gybing
(a) If mark-room for a boat includes a change of tack, such tack or gybe shall be done no faster
than a tack or gybe to sail her proper-course.
(b) When an inside overlapped right-of-way boat must change tack at a mark to sail her proper
course, until she changes tack she shall sail no farther from the mark than needed to sail
that course. Rule 18.3(b) does not apply at a gate mark or a finishing mark and a boat shall
not be penalized for breaking this rule unless the course of another boat was affected by
the breach of this rule."""

So sailing ones 'proper course' might oblige you to tack slowly on the foils, not crash tack to gain a tactical advantage..

I'm not sure the phrase 'seamanlike manner' is all that helpful, some people seem to interpret it as 'like a pipe smoking bloke in a smelly old jumper', does the phrase even appear in the SailGP rules? Proper course is just what gets you to the finish fastest ignoring other boats affected.
Back to Top
ohFFsake View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 04 Sep 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 219
Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 21 at 1:43pm
As already noted, none of rule 18.3b applies to this case.

As is so often the case, to interpret the rules requires careful consideration of the definitions, which are also in the document I linked.

We can be clear that JPN was entitled to Mark Room as they entered the 45m circle first.

Mark Room is defined as Room to sail her proper course and leave the mark on the correct side

Room is defined, and includes the phrase "while maneuvering promptly in a seamanlike way",
 
So she is entitled to sufficient room to sail her proper course in that manner, but no more.

Looking again at the video, I remain convinced that JPN were given ample room to tack promptly in a seamanlike way until after the point when they left the mark zone, at which point rule 18 switches off and GBR reverts to being ROW boat.

So I think the rules, although not terribly clear, covered the situation and were just badly applied.

Back to Top
MikeBz View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 536
Post Options Post Options   Quote MikeBz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 21 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by ohFFsake

Mark Room is defined as Room to sail her proper course and leave the mark on the correct side

One could intepret that as meaning that even if JPN had no intention of tacking (her proper course being to continue to the other mark of the gate) then IF she had to duck GBR that would be an enforced deviation from her proper course at a time when she was entitled to sail her proper course  (because she was entitled to mark room) - maybe that is what the judge was thinking?
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6625
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 21 at 2:24pm
From video it appears that the SailGP boats need about two boat lengths from starting to turn to completing the tack. JPN were approaching tight to the mark, so couldn't start turning until past the mark. I think there probably was room to tack, but not enough to be called ample. Bearing in mind the catastrophic consequences of collision it wasn't unreasonable for JPN to consider it unsafe to try a tack, or unreasonable for the Umpire to agree. It certainly wasn't a foul under standard RRS, but that's the problem with changing the rules. These rules give a big advantage to a port tack inside boat. I wonder if it was intended?
Back to Top
ohFFsake View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 04 Sep 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 219
Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 21 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by MikeBz

Originally posted by ohFFsake

Mark Room is defined as Room to sail her proper course and leave the mark on the correct side

One could intepret that as meaning that even if JPN had no intention of tacking (her proper course being to continue to the other mark of the gate) then IF she had to duck GBR that would be an enforced deviation from her proper course at a time when she was entitled to sail her proper course  (because she was entitled to mark room) - maybe that is what the judge was thinking?
That's an interesting bit of lateral thinking, but surely any rights for room at the other mark would only kick in when JPN enters the zone belonging to that mark?

Also, I don't think they actually ducked GBR anyway, did they? 
Back to Top
MikeBz View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 536
Post Options Post Options   Quote MikeBz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 21 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by ohFFsake

That's an interesting bit of lateral thinking, but surely any rights for room at the other mark would only kick in when JPN enters the zone belonging to that mark?

I'm thinking of rights at the mark GBR is rounding (JPN is overlapped, so by the definition of mark room you quoted she is entitled to room to sail her proper course).  The question is does 'proper course' include not rounding the mark and continuing to the other one?  I think it's arguable, but maybe the full text of the rules deals with this.

It would be interesting to get @Mozzy's take on this.


Also, I don't think they actually ducked GBR anyway, did they? 

They feigned a duck but whether it was necessary is another matter.


Edited by MikeBz - 24 Aug 21 at 3:00pm
Back to Top
ohFFsake View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 04 Sep 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 219
Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 21 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by JimC

From video it appears that the SailGP boats need about two boat lengths from starting to turn to completing the tack. JPN were approaching tight to the mark, so couldn't start turning until past the mark. I think there probably was room to tack, but not enough to be called ample. Bearing in mind the catastrophic consequences of collision it wasn't unreasonable for JPN to consider it unsafe to try a tack, or unreasonable for the Umpire to agree. It certainly wasn't a foul under standard RRS, but that's the problem with changing the rules. These rules give a big advantage to a port tack inside boat. I wonder if it was intended?
Are we back to the "spirit of the rules" here, whatever that may mean?

Japan possibly thinking they wanted a big safety margin is surely their call and not cause for protest or penalty?
The rules don't oblige the boat giving room to give "ample" room, merely enough room for a "prompt and seamanlike" manoeuvre.

So if it takes 2 boat lengths to tack an F50 then surely the 3 boat lengths that GBR were giving at the point when JPN chose not to tack was sufficient to comply with the letter of the rules?

Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6625
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 21 at 3:21pm
The trouble with ditching the entire rule book is that you've ditched the entire rule book. So none of the case book applies. Nevertheless maybe the principles do.
Case 50 says "When a protest committee finds that in a port-starboard incident S did not change course and that there was not a genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision on the part of S, it should dismiss her protest. When the committee finds that S did change course and that there was reasonable doubt that P could have crossed ahead of S if S had not changed course, then P should be disqualified. "
So if you consider the general principle might apply then do we end up with "was there a genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision on the part of JPN?" Especially when considering the time available for a decision and the closing speed.
I submit that its possible to consider that tacking into that gap at that speed would have been a risky manouver, and that risky manouvers at that sort of closing speed should not be attempted in those boats. If that was the belief of the umpires then I suggest their call, even though marginal was, if not definitively correct, at least defensible.



Edited by JimC - 24 Aug 21 at 3:30pm
Back to Top
ohFFsake View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 04 Sep 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 219
Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 21 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by JimC

...I submit that its possible to consider that tacking into that gap at that speed would have been a risky manouver, and that risky manouvers at that sort of closing speed should not be attempted in those boats. If that was the belief of the umpires then I suggest their call, even though marginal was, if not definitively correct, at least defensible.

If we go along with this line of thought, which isn't unreasonable, then it brings up another point.

Which is that if a call is marginal, then surely the benefit of the doubt should be "no penalty"?

Also, as it is there is an incentive to protest every marginal situation as the avoiding boat can never realistically lose out.

Either the umpires need to start considering "no penalty" to be the default unless there is a clear foul beyond reasonable doubt, or perhaps the pressing of the "protest" button needs to have a cost associated with it - eg it uses up a limited number of allowable protests so don't waste it on a frivolous, prospective call!

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy