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AC36 is over.

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Multihulls
Forum Name: America's Cup
Forum Discription: Your thoughts on challenges to win the 'Auld Mug'
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13756
Printed Date: 25 Jul 21 at 9:04am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: AC36 is over.
Posted By: Chris_H
Subject: AC36 is over.
Date Posted: 17 Mar 21 at 11:44am
Well, it's over. I have been up at 3am every day of the AC finals to watch the online racing live.  And this morning was the last. Now I can get some normal sleep.

In the end, the right team won, however much I was rooting for LR to win (selfishly becaue I would want the next AC in Europe - though rumours abound on that topic ....)

Overall impression is that the boats surpassed everyones expectations and produced some amazing racing. Race 9 was superb and showed off match racing CAN still happen in these F1-type boats.

Could some things have been better? Yes, of course. The expected sronger winds never materialised for the AC finals, and so some of the racing became predicatable once the start had happened. Whatever type of boat sailed, it would have been the same. 

I enjoyed following all the campaigns, the boats, the teams, the people and the spectacle that is the AC.  It is strongly rumoured that the next AC will use the AC75's again and it will be interesting to see how a AC75-V2 version will perform after the lessons learned from this series.

I have no time for the curmudgeons who want to go back to lead mines - go do it - there are plenty of leadmine series for you to watch through your rose tinted specs trying to remember an era that never, in reality, existed in any case.  We move on, F1 cars move on, AC boats move on.

Bring on AC37. :-)
(and more Mozzy insight ;-)   )



Replies:
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Mar 21 at 12:39pm
And sailing becomes so much more accessible. I wonder what the viewing figures were.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 17 Mar 21 at 1:38pm
I  kind of agree with you Chris - personally I found the racing to be a bit dull but the spectacle of these huge foiling boats was good viewing even if I did enjoy geeking out on the analysis more than the racing at times. Personally I would prefer to watch team racing in fireflies at the Wilson Trophy over the Americas Cup as I think it is way more interesting, more technical, requires way more skill / guile / understanding of the rules but I personally have no issue that both kinds of sailing exist and if the AC boats bring in a new audience to our sport then all power to them frankly! The idea of getting up in the night to watch that was way past my level of interest, especially when I could watch on youTube and just fast forward to the start and know the outcome in most cases!

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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145


Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 17 Mar 21 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by H2

The idea of getting up in the night to watch that was way past my level of interest, especially when I could watch on youTube and just fast forward to the start and know the outcome in most cases!
My partner and friends said that, but then where is the fun in that Wink  Big smile


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 17 Mar 21 at 3:28pm
Not only did watching on Youtube avoid missing out on sleep, it meant that you can skip a lot of boring chat, that I had no real interest in.

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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 17 Mar 21 at 3:55pm
Royal Yacht Squadron represented by Ineos Team UK has been announced as the next Challenger of Record. Even a potential showcase match around the Isle of Wight - that would be incredible. Clap  

http://portal4sport.com/sports/sailing/breaking-news-exclusive-video-37th-americas-cup-challenger-of-record-announced-in-rnzys-ballroom/" rel="nofollow - https://portal4sport.com/sports/sailing/breaking-news-exclusive-video-37th-americas-cup-challenger-of-record-announced-in-rnzys-ballroom/



Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 17 Mar 21 at 4:39pm
The boats are incredible and the right team certainly won. I watched on catchup all the Ineos races and watched the last few of the final the same way. In all I only watched two races that where interesting by which I mean any significant actual racing after the first few minutes. These generally resulted from the boats being equal speed on the day and conditions shifty on the day. 

What this cup has taught us again is that technology is critical winning the cup and winning it first or second time isn’t a reality, LR have been at it for 20plus years. This creates a bit of a dilemma, any new teams wanting to enter have a serious amount of catch-up that even with the resources Ineos has simply wasn’t enough. 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 17 Mar 21 at 4:50pm
The AC75s are an amazing ground breaking boat, and I think have re-established the AC as the Formula 1 of sailing, with both its good and bad aspects.

For me there has always been a fundamental mismatch in the whole concept of the AC, in that match racing should be between matched boats - if either boat has any speed advantage at all it stops being a match race and becomes a boring procession.

We saw this in both the RR and the Challenger Finals, but by good design or by chance the AC did deliver some decent tactical sailing. As a whole I think it was streets ahead of the last round, and with a few tweaks the next event could be fantastic.

My suggested few tweaks:
1. Make the boats closer to being a one design. How about the foil package being part of the class rules, perhaps with large foils for < 10kts and smaller foils for above, with the race committee declaring which are to be used before each day's racing? Closer racing and cheaper boats might encourage other teams to enter - a challenger series of just 3 boats was a bit disappointing.
2. Wider race course and starting area
3. Return to more normal rules on fouls. Unlike cats these boats are able to do turns instead of the arbitrary slowing down which seems inconsistent and unfair.
4. Allow competitors to carry and offset penalties, then we get some match racing.


Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 17 Mar 21 at 4:59pm
As an aside, I would like to have seen Jimmy Spithill and team race on-board NZ. Jimmy is by far the better match racer IMHO than Peter Burling (not minimising Peter's skills), but Jimmy (and Ben) are sublime match racers. They would likely have been unbeatable as a combination on the NZ boat


Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 17 Mar 21 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by tink

The boats are incredible and the right team certainly won. I watched on catchup all the Ineos races and watched the last few of the final the same way. In all I only watched two races that where interesting by which I mean any significant actual racing after the first few minutes. These generally resulted from the boats being equal speed on the day and conditions shifty on the day. 

What this cup has taught us again is that technology is critical winning the cup and winning it first or second time isn’t a reality, LR have been at it for 20plus years. This creates a bit of a dilemma, any new teams wanting to enter have a serious amount of catch-up that even with the resources Ineos has simply wasn’t enough. 
I think INEOS could have won at this second try, they just got stuff wrong. Also not being CoR or Defender with a new rule is a bit of a back foot. 

I also think what this cup lacked, but with a retention of class may be possible, is more second tier teams. Those who either want to enter on a lower budget with hopes of securing more funding for a future tilt or those hoping to just get the required exposure from being part of the event and associated with it, rather than winning. 

This cup had four well funded, out to win teams. Which is about as many as we ever really get. But with a new class and no hand me downs in design packages or actual hardware it just wasn't possible to do. Plus the class was totally unproven. So there was a real chance of teams just not getting a working boat made. 

Course C was great for racing. I think there were many more than two interesting or close races. Pretty much all of the round robin was good to watch. Unfortunately the semi finals was a walkover with AM limping round. And then the light and predictable sea breezes kicked in. 

The first four races of the Match were a bit of a tactical stalemate after the start, and I think the courses could have been a bit wider. However, they did keep the racing close and allowed racing to continue into this week, which has then provided us with some of the best racing of the cup. 


Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 17 Mar 21 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by ohFFsake

The AC75s are an amazing ground breaking boat, and I think have re-established the AC as the Formula 1 of sailing, with both its good and bad aspects.

For me there has always been a fundamental mismatch in the whole concept of the AC, in that match racing should be between matched boats - if either boat has any speed advantage at all it stops being a match race and becomes a boring procession.

We saw this in both the RR and the Challenger Finals, but by good design or by chance the AC did deliver some decent tactical sailing. As a whole I think it was streets ahead of the last round, and with a few tweaks the next event could be fantastic.

My suggested few tweaks:
1. Make the boats closer to being a one design. How about the foil package being part of the class rules, perhaps with large foils for < 10kts and smaller foils for above, with the race committee declaring which are to be used before each day's racing? Closer racing and cheaper boats might encourage other teams to enter - a challenger series of just 3 boats was a bit disappointing.
2. Wider race course and starting area
3. Return to more normal rules on fouls. Unlike cats these boats are able to do turns instead of the arbitrary slowing down which seems inconsistent and unfair.
4. Allow competitors to carry and offset penalties, then we get some match racing.

I guess match racing as we understand it now has become this tactical play based around quite complex rules. But, I don't think that has historically been the case (or but for a very brief time actually the case with Cup boats).  
However, we did see some pretty textbook match racing with tacking duels. Loose V close cover, protecting sides of the course. Bouncing opponents in to bad shifts. 

I actually think they don't need to go more one design to reduce costs or performance gaps. I think the fact that there will be mutual shared learnings from this cup on what a AC75 should be, the boat will naturally converge in design somewhat. It's always going to be expensive to win though. 

I also think the big improvement from the cats with one design hulls is that the technology has largely been very visible. Last time we only got a glimpse of a foil at launch and everything visible during racing was near enough identical to the eye (cylors apart). 

I agree on 2 (although could maybe be condition specific?) and definitely agree on 3 and 4. 


Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 17 Mar 21 at 5:37pm
I am not overly convinced about 'much wider' courses. Wider - Yes, Much wider - Not sure. You want to keep the boats more together, not doing wide splits and flyers. A 'taller' course would be better IMHO. This would mean more tacks, more crosses, more distance.


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 6:06am
Think LR could consider themselves unlucky not to have got to 5-5 at one point - a dodgy tack in no breeze and one shift lost then 2 races

Interesting if it comes to a neutral venue - it would probably generate far more interest from challengers and viewers

Got to feel for the people in NZ who were hoping for 10 teams and all that goes with it. With only 3 challengers the amount of sailing to watch was fairly pitiful

Not sure there's anywhere in the UK suitable for these boats - far to choppy. The GP cats struggled in the Solent at times

All in all, bearing in mind the complexity of these boats, I'm still amazed that races were competitive







Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 6:58am
You not going to get more teams when the development is so expensive and speed difference can be so great if they’re not sailing in their ideal conditions. They need to be brought more one design and share data (like sail GP) if they’re going to attract more teams. 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 7:06am
Cats next time, get rid of these annoying, nodding, three legged dogs.

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Robert


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 8:17am
I admit, I was more impressed by these boats than I thought I would be, if only because the foils gave them small turning circles compared to either a cat or a long monohull. But the 2 minute highlights were enough to watch for me.
How about replicas of the original boats for the next one, all of them, plus allowing America to cheat again? Not that she needed to, given her speed advantage.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 9:24am
If they do have a "hype race" around the IOW they could always have a second start 10 minutes later and invite all the J class yachts to race round after them

Plot twist: Breeze drops below 8kts and the J's overtake them...


Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 9:41am
Originally posted by tink

You not going to get more teams when the development is so expensive and speed difference can be so great if they’re not sailing in their ideal conditions. They need to be brought more one design and share data (like sail GP) if they’re going to attract more teams. 

Foil cant, rudder, pitch, heart rates, heading, course (leeway) are all shared publicly. It's been pretty open data wise. All down to 20hz. 

I think one design ruins the build up, nothing to really talk about, and makes all the boat look the same with no identity. This time there were large visual differences between sails, hulls and foils and even the way the teams crewed the boats that could be discussed. 

I also don't think development is off putting. The risk of the the whole concept failing and initial design cost and development for a new class is. 

But next cup other teams will know the class and design is proven. And they can just pinch a lot of the design off this cup. Back when the AC had lots of challengers, realistically only about 3 or 4 tops were doing it to win. That's the same as this cup. But other teams will pitch up if they can compete in the same arena.

Bermuda we had ETNZ, BAR and Artemis as serious challengers.  


Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 9:56am
I still think the foils and mechanism should be a fixed package. There are still plenty of other areas where development can take place.

The issue with foils seems to be that they are massively expensive to design and develop and have long production lead times, so teams have to commit to fundamental decisions early in the campaign based on assumptions about factors like venue weather conditions.

It seems clear that this time LR optimised for light airs, ETNZ optimised for breeze and they were both largely stuck with those choices. I think we got lucky in that the boats ended up fairly well matched, it could just as easily have turned out as LR winning by a country mile in the light days and the opposite when (if) the breeze came in, with only the occasional "crossover" day yielding a match.

As things are there still seems potential for this to happen next time around, and in a match race format we'd have better racing if the foils were like a "control tyre" in motor racing.



Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 10:00am
Originally posted by ohFFsake

I still think the foils and mechanism should be a fixed package. There are still plenty of other areas where development can take place.

The issue with foils seems to be that they are massively expensive to design and develop and have long production lead times, so teams have to commit to fundamental decisions early in the campaign based on assumptions about factors like venue weather conditions.

It seems clear that this time LR optimised for light airs, ETNZ optimised for breeze and they were both largely stuck with those choices. I think we got lucky in that the boats ended up fairly well matched, it could just as easily have turned out as LR winning by a country mile in the light days and the opposite when (if) the breeze came in, with only the occasional "crossover" day yielding a match.

As things are there still seems potential for this to happen next time around, and in a match race format we'd have better racing if the foils were like a "control tyre" in motor racing.


If foil development had reached maturity, I would agree that a one-design would help on costs. However, I believe they are still a long way on the development curve. The difference in foils between this cup and the last is quite big and may well be big again next time. Its good to see how these paths work out. 


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by Chris_H

 

If foil development had reached maturity, I would agree that a one-design would help on costs. However, I believe they are still a long way on the development curve. The difference in foils between this cup and the last is quite big and may well be big again next time. Its good to see how these paths work out. 

Definitely. The foils were in my opinion the biggest difference in performance between the 2 boats with one being better in the light and the other in the breeze. Standardising them would be criminal to this being a "development class"

I feel something needs to be changed to ensure you don't have to lock your foils in before the regatta, give them freedom to change depending on wind conditions. This will even the racing up massively but may increase costs on development. I fear though changing them over isn't a quick process like it was on the old cats


Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 19 Mar 21 at 7:06am
It is confirmed. RYS with Ineos Team UK are the next Challenger of Record for AC37. The boats will be the AC75 for the next 2 cup cycles. Only 1 new AC75 may be built per team. There is a Nationality rule also.

http://emirates-team-new-zealand.americascup.com/en/news/521_CHALLENGE-ACCEPTED.html" rel="nofollow - https://emirates-team-new-zealand.americascup.com/en/news/521_CHALLENGE-ACCEPTED.html


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 19 Mar 21 at 7:14am
Interesting article on how AI was used by ETNZ, I’m sure with the Ineos links to F1 they did the same. Like all simulations the getting the starting parameters right is key, with all the data the four teams have the boats should become faster and hopefully closer matched, the variable be conditions on the day.

  https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2021/03/17/how-technology-won-the-americas-cup/?fbclid=IwAR1Hp0FgpaR9BkEmURQYXbFLQuEHvjhiD1aoW5UI7pAjuOilA0oWrHwtiYQ" rel="nofollow - https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2021/03/17/how-technology-won-the-americas-cup/?fbclid=IwAR1Hp0FgpaR9BkEmURQYXbFLQuEHvjhiD1aoW5UI7pAjuOilA0oWrHwtiYQ


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 19 Mar 21 at 7:24am
Originally posted by Mozzy

Originally posted by tink

You not going to get more teams when the development is so expensive and speed difference can be so great if they’re not sailing in their ideal conditions. They need to be brought more one design and share data (like sail GP) if they’re going to attract more teams. 

Foil cant, rudder, pitch, heart rates, heading, course (leeway) are all shared publicly. It's been pretty open data wise. All down to 20hz. 

I think one design ruins the build up, nothing to really talk about, and makes all the boat look the same with no identity. This time there were large visual differences between sails, hulls and foils and even the way the teams crewed the boats that could be discussed. 

I also don't think development is off putting. The risk of the the whole concept failing and initial design cost and development for a new class is. 

But next cup other teams will know the class and design is proven. And they can just pinch a lot of the design off this cup. Back when the AC had lots of challengers, realistically only about 3 or 4 tops were doing it to win. That's the same as this cup. But other teams will pitch up if they can compete in the same arena.

Bermuda we had ETNZ, BAR and Artemis as serious challengers.  
Maybe not full one design but tighter limits on area and thickness so we don’t have heavy wind and light wind dogs 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 19 Mar 21 at 9:33am
So how are they able to lock down the next TWO regattas to using the AC75?

Does this perhaps indicate that the next event will be a deed of gift regatta between the two teams with no one else involved? I don't see how else can they guarantee that there won't be a different winner at the next event who can then change the rules again.



Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 19 Mar 21 at 9:43am
Originally posted by ohFFsake

So how are they able to lock down the next TWO regattas to using the AC75?

Does this perhaps indicate that the next event will be a deed of gift regatta between the two teams with no one else involved? I don't see how else can they guarantee that there won't be a different winner at the next event who can then change the rules again.


Condition of entry to AC37  is that you agree to 2 cups in AC75's...

I am sure, if a new winner of AC37 took real exception after that match, then legals will be flying. Legals is part and parcel of the AC  ;-)

In my view, some class stability for the AC is required anyway, (and also to see where the current development goes) so 2 cup cycles in AC75's works for me and clearly for NZ and UK


Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 19 Mar 21 at 9:50am
I completely agree with the sentiment, I just wonder how they could lock it down to prevent (say) Prada winning the next event then tearing up the agreement and switching back to 12 metres!

If the intent is that the next event is between INEOS and ETNZ that gives them control, and also explains why they are setting up a joint management company to run both events, to give each team security if the other wins



Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 19 Mar 21 at 10:57am
[QUOTE=ohFFsake]I completely agree with the sentiment, I just wonder how they could lock it down to prevent (say) Prada winning the next event then tearing up the agreement and switching back to 12 metres!

If the intent is that the next event is between INEOS and ETNZ that gives them control, and also explains why they are setting up a joint management company to run both events, to give each team security if the other wins

[/QUOTE

Pure speculation, but you could make AC37 a pure DoG match between NZ and UK, and then a Challenger match for AC38. That would fix that



Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 19 Mar 21 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by Chris_H

 
Pure speculation, but you could make AC37 a pure DoG match between NZ and UK, and then a Challenger match for AC38. That would fix that
Which is exactly what I said to start with, two posts ago! LOL


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 19 Mar 21 at 1:02pm
Pure speculation, but you tcould make AC37 a pure DoG match between NZ and UK, and then a Challenger match for AC38. That would fix that

You could, but there's a lot of economic benefit and spinoff from an AC series, and it would have been even (much) greater in the absence of covid with feeder series etc. I can't see any of those involved seeing a simple 2 way match as taking full advantage!


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Mar 21 at 1:10pm
Presumably the intention is to make the next event quick and private and soon to get some return on investment for the two teams' sponsors, while not delaying things so far that the teams left out say "**** you" and lose interest.


Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 19 Mar 21 at 2:42pm
My speculation fairly matches others...
https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2021/03/19/americas-cup-reading-the-tea-leaves/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3VnJTCQrt4xbexxp1kY2hf9K7MNV12adnVBZ2ZyfYUF-znmHmbCPgLvCs" rel="nofollow - https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2021/03/19/americas-cup-reading-the-tea-leaves/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3VnJTCQrt4xbexxp1kY2hf9K7MNV12adnVBZ2ZyfYUF-znmHmbCPgLvCs




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